Quote of the Day

[dakegra]

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe.
~ Carl Sagan


discuss.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

True, within limits. The bit about it being based on a need to believe is entirely true in my experience, but to suggest that this belief cannot be refocussed is less of a given. There is in fact a very old observation that converts are often the most vehement supporters of any movement and it's certainly far easier to find evidence of people who swap one philosophy-in-a-box for another than it is to find individuals who have actually changed the way they think.

Richard Dawkins' website has a whole section devoted to communications from people telling how they switched from a creationist to an evolutionist standpoint because they read one book. Not that they read that book, followed the references in it, read some more, compared the available evidence and evaluated it properly before they came to their conclusion, but that they read one book and pointed their belief in a new direction. Dawkins increasingly seems to believe that all that matters is that the idiots pick the right guru to follow; I'd rather we tried to elevate them above idiocy.

[martinoh.livejournal.com]

Pah. I go to all the trouble of composing a diatribe, only to find LJ has logged me out and submitted it anonymously.

[dakegra.livejournal.com]

hang on, I'll unscreen it.

[martinoh.livejournal.com]

I can repost it if it would be easier

[chippa.livejournal.com]

Disingenuous conclusion.

The faith of the believer has an object, it's faith in God.

The faith of an unbeliever lacks an object. It's faith in faith.

[martinoh.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested in that evidence; I know very few people who are properly observant of all the rituals and restrictions of their professed faith, preferring instead to follow only those that don't inconvenience them too much.

[chebutykin.livejournal.com]

I'd say it's an overly simplistic comment. People certainly can gain or lose faith during the course of their lives. However, the crux of the comment, I'd say, is correct: it's likely useless to try to disprove a belief to a believer, as that sort of paradigm shift tends to come from life experiences rather than conversations with other people. In other words, they usually need to be shown, not told, that their belief is false.

[poliphilo.livejournal.com]

No, I don't buy it. I've had my beliefs changed and modified by evidence.

But it's got to be real, hard evidence- not merely another set of beliefs masquerading as science.

[pickwick.livejournal.com]

I'd say it's true to an extent. I don't think you can convince a believer that they're wrong, but you can show them the evidence and change the way they think of their faith - get them to admit that it's blind faith (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I don't think, as long as they're aware of it! It makes them more sympathetic to other viewpoints, if you're lucky.) And from there, some of them will continue to look at evidence and think about it, and may or may not lose their faith, but either way they're making an educated decision. At least, that's the way I try and work when I'm debating with people...

[jugglebug.livejournal.com]

Too deep for me in my current state of mind, however I do have an ebook of Mr Sagans. "the demon haunted world" if you would like it..

[primitivepeople.livejournal.com]

Agreed, largely. I think religious faith works for certain personality types and not others.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

:D

I agree :D

[greenwitch77.livejournal.com]

Surely if you tell them something that may or may not be true but sounds convincing then you've convinced them of something...

[quaero-verum.livejournal.com]

Is it required that personal experiences be validated by evidence?

[dakegra.livejournal.com]

would a personal experience not constitute evidence in and of itself?

[quaero-verum.livejournal.com]

It might be, but since experiences are generally relative, some might have a hard time categorizing said experience as evidential.